In this episode, Sarah Curnoles sits down with therapist Michelle Cantrell to explore gray divorce and the unique experience of ending a long-term relationship later in life. Michelle shares both her professional insight and personal journey, discussing grief, changing identity, rediscovering personal preferences, asking for support, and finding moments of awe and possibility while moving forward. A key takeaway is that the end of a relationship does not erase the life, love, or meaningful experiences that came before it—and grief and new possibilities can exist at the same time. Listeners will come away with compassionate, practical ways to reconnect with themselves, honor what they have lost, and approach the next chapter of life with curiosity and openness.
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Sarah Curnoles: Okay, welcome, everybody! I am so excited for our guest today. I'm so glad to have Michelle Cantrell here with me.
Sarah Curnoles: And we are… we are getting into some great topics today. I'm so excited for this conversation. I'm also really grateful this podcast gives me this opportunity to connect with people that I wouldn't meet otherwise, and so I hope I get to introduce
Sarah Curnoles: you all to people that you might not meet otherwise, and we get to learn from. So, welcome, Michelle!
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Thank you, Sarah. I am so glad to be here, and I just really love the work that you're doing, and the message that you're putting out there, and the way you're talking about breakups.
Sarah Curnoles: Thank you, thank you. So, tell… tell the audience a little bit about you. How did you get here? What brings you here today?
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Yeah, well, I am a licensed professional clinical counselor, which is a mouthful way of saying I'm a therapist.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): And I specialize in relationship functioning, and so that really goes across the spectrum from, you know, folks who keep saying, I get into…
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): the same relationships over and over again, and I want to break free from these toxic patterns to couples therapy. I specialize in an approach called Emotionally focused couples therapy, which is grounded in attachment science. And then on the other end, navigating breakups and divorce.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): And when you asked me how did you get here, that is an area I never thought I would be a specialist in. And so here I am, after having been partnered with my own
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Husband for… we were together 31 years, married 28, and a couple of years ago, decided our relationship had reached its limits and began the process of going through divorce.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): So, now, I really love to talk about gray divorce, because it is a unique phenomenon that we experience when we go through a breakup later in life.
Sarah Curnoles: Yeah, so let's… let's talk about it. So, how do you define gray divorce?
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Yeah. Well, first of all, I want to be clear, because some people have never heard that term. I did not come up with it.
Sarah Curnoles: But.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): It is a term that is increasingly being used, because the number of divorces that are happening in the 50-plus population, and that's typically how it's defined, is increasing rapidly, while it's actually decreasing in other age groups.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): So, gray divorce is typically defined as divorce that's, commenced at 50 or above, and what we are now seeing is that about a third of the divorces that are happening now are happening in that demographic.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): And so, it is just coming with a whole convergence of forces that happen along the same time as
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Ending a marriage or a relationship that often has been in place for decades.
Sarah Curnoles: Yeah, a third. I did not realize that… I knew… I knew this was a bigger, section. I did not realize it's a third.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Yeah.
Sarah Curnoles: That's a lot. Okay.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): happen? Oh, I… sorry, you just froze up, just a sec.
Sarah Curnoles: Yeah, it's okay. So, we'll edit this.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Okay.
Sarah Curnoles: Oh no!
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): problem is.
Sarah Curnoles: I don't know what it is either!
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): So sorry about that.
Sarah Curnoles: No, it's okay, it happens.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Yeah.
Sarah Curnoles: Okay, we'll cross our fingers, so I'll do the,
Sarah Curnoles: I said the thing about the third, and I didn't realize, and then I didn't hear what you said in response.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Okay, okay.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): I'm not even sure what I said either.
Sarah Curnoles: It's okay.
Sarah Curnoles: I don't think I realized it was so high that it's one-third.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Yeah, yeah. And I think what's fascinating is that that number is growing in that age group. While it is actually shrinking, there are fewer divorces happening in younger age groups, and so there's something really unique happening.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): In the 50-plus population, where, you know, there's an examination of roles and identities and relationships and what it means to be committed to somebody long-term.
Sarah Curnoles: Yeah, and I'm sure also a piece of this is that we are living longer these days, and one of the questions that people might be asking is, is this the person I want to go into my…
Sarah Curnoles: like, my fifth act, right? Like, do I want to be going into my last chapter with this person?
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Yeah, exactly. And then I think another factor that makes gray divorce more unique, and you know, when I talk about it being unique and different, it doesn't make it better or worse than divorce or breakup at any other stage, it's just different, but it often coincides with other major life events, such as becoming an empty nester, taking care of aging parents.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): And for women, often menopause or perimenopause, which is another monumental shift
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Our physical selves, our emotional selves, our identity. And so when you put this all together, it's this massive soup of experiences that make the divorce so much… the impact of the divorce so much greater, often.
Sarah Curnoles: Yeah, and what do you think are some of the unique challenges that people face when they're going through gray divorce?
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Well, you've touched on this in some of your other episodes, but the identity piece, I think, is one of the biggest, and we can actually explain that somewhat through science. There's a theory called self-expansion theory, which really captures what you've talked about. When we
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): cohabitate, when we live with somebody, and most of the time in our adult lives that is going to be a romantic partner, we begin to fuse somewhat our identities. So there isn't just the identity of me as a wife, but there's the identity of we.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): And so, you know, it informs our preferences, it informs, you know, sometimes it might even be the way we talk a little bit. And so, when you suddenly sever that relationship.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): there's the… it's like severing a limb, Sarah. It's like… there's… you know, it's not just losing myself as a wife, it then is forcing me to ask the question, who am I if I'm not a wife? So, I really… when I talk to people, I think the identity piece
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): is a huge part of it. I think also the letting go of the future you had imagined yourself being in, you know, with my ex-partner, we got married young enough that I fully anticipated celebrating a golden anniversary one day.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): And so, I didn't just have to grieve losing him, I didn't grieve… just grieve losing the relationship, I had to grieve losing the future that felt very secure and predictable for me. You've also talked about uncertainty, and so that feeds into all of what we're dealing with, with
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Letting go of a long-term relationship.
Sarah Curnoles: And, you know, I think…
Sarah Curnoles: the whole idea of, like, I have to grieve, I'm not gonna get that golden anniversary. It… when you say the words, you're like, well, that sounds silly, I shouldn't be… I shouldn't have to grieve that, but…
Sarah Curnoles: But you… you do! That is something that's monumental. My grandparents had a golden anniversary, and you know, I'm in my 40s, and I'm still single. I'm probably not getting a golden anniversary, and there's a part of me that's, like.
Sarah Curnoles: Oh, that's a bummer. That's sad.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Yeah, and…
Sarah Curnoles: Even that thing that you're like, well, that's silly to mourn, but no, it's, like, valid. That is a valid thing.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Yeah, it's part of a future I had envisioned for myself that had a lot of other things built into that.
Sarah Curnoles: how… so you mentioned this whole identity piece, right? How does somebody start the rebuilding process of, like, how do you build an identity from what…
Sarah Curnoles: I mean, it seems like scratch, it's not, but it feels like it.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Well, I think it's just approaching life with a lot of curiosity and openness.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): And one of the things I heard you say on one of your other podcasts is sort of maybe going back, starting with going back, who were you before the relationship? And it doesn't mean you're necessarily… I think the example you'd used is, you know, somebody you had worked with, they had met.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): when they were 16, and it doesn't necessarily mean you're going to become a teenager again, but it might mean reconnecting with things that brought you joy at that time, and seeing, does that fit? And, you know, when I think about raising children.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): or at least the way I raised my own children, I just loved to expose them to a lot of different things to see what stuck, right?
Sarah Curnoles: Mmm.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): And what stuck at one era of their lives didn't stick in another era of their lives, you know? They did all the kid stuff, the karate and the soccer, the dance, and over time, who they were emerged in some of those activities. And so, I think as we're exploring what it means to be us outside of a relationship.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): It really asks of us to be open to experiences and curious and attuned to ourselves. How am I feeling as I engage in this? How am I feeling as I'm spending time with this person or that person? How am I feeling
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): As I'm moving my body, does this feel good? And just being…
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Really aware and open to what's happening for you, and how that's shaping who you are becoming.
Sarah Curnoles: I really love this idea of kind of relating it to how you exposed your kids to all kinds of things, of like, why not as adults? I think we need to do more stuff like we did as kids in the first place.
Sarah Curnoles: But, like, if you're reshaping your identity, why not go back to that phase where you're like, do I like playing the flute? Do I like soccer? Do I like… like, and just…
Sarah Curnoles: I don't know, let me just try a class, let me find out. I had… I was… I was on a call, like, just earlier today with somebody who is working on building an identity herself, and she said, I've had this app.
Sarah Curnoles: And I've had on there every single day a reminder, like, do something creative. And she's like, I never do it.
Sarah Curnoles: And I said, well, maybe we start a lot smaller.
Sarah Curnoles: Let's start with, what are you curious about?
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Hmm. Just…
Sarah Curnoles: notice during the day, like, notice one thing that has you go, oh, that tile looks cool, or I've never noticed that flower before, right? Just start paying attention.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Yeah. Yeah, the paying attention is key, and I think sometimes experimenting, not just with new activities, but habits.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): And, you know, a simple example of that is, you know, I consider myself a pretty clean and neat and organized person, but a lot of that I took on as a result of being partnered with somebody who was extra that way.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): And I remember the first time I had a gathering at my house after we were separated, and
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): The drill had always been, over the years, anytime we had any… any, you know, whether it was dinner, or guests or parties.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): You did not go to bed until everything was clean, because we didn't want to wake up to a messy house. And the first time I had a party, you know, it was 2 AM, and I thought, you know what? I'm…
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): I'm tired! I'm gonna go to bed, I don't really care if I have to wake up and clean up. And it was a liberating moment, Sarah, because it was one of those times where
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): you know, sure, I would have loved to have woken up and had a clean house, but nobody else was gonna do it, and I got to choose what my preference was, rather than orienting myself around someone else's preferences. Not that either is better or worse, but it's tuning in to what feels right for me.
Sarah Curnoles: I think there's so much there as well, because I imagine people experiencing gray divorce, there's a lot of self-judgment. There probably also feels like maybe there's societal judgment as well, of… it could be any layer of stories of, like, you're a failure, or…
Sarah Curnoles: I don't know why, that's the big one that's coming out.
Sarah Curnoles: But if you reframe it the way that you did.
Sarah Curnoles: of, well, what is my preference, right? It's not such a bad thing to be starting over if I get to discover what I like.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Yeah.
Sarah Curnoles: Or maybe it's looking at it like this can be an opportunity.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Yes.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): I love viewing this moment in life as an opportunity, and that doesn't… this not to sugarcoat, put a rose-colored glasses on, the pain that often comes with a breakup, especially after you've been partnered with somebody for years.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): But what I love is that those two can coexist, and in fact, when we Work towards the opportunity.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): engage in things that help us really connect with ourselves. It can help
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Resource us in a way that we can deal with the grief and the pain, rather than trying to push it away or avoid it.
Sarah Curnoles: I like that, of…
Sarah Curnoles: taking the both-and approach of, I can grieve and I can get curious and find ways to resource myself with joy or pleasure or creativity.
Sarah Curnoles: oh, there was this really great book I read about a woman who was experiencing gray divorce, and she used awe and wonder. It's like, she got into nature, right? That was one of the ways she resourced herself, and
Sarah Curnoles: Yeah, using… thinking about it, like.
Sarah Curnoles: I can grieve, and I can resource myself.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): And those two words, awe and wonder, I think are… can be such a healing space if we can find our way to it. Now, I know, especially in the acute stages of grief, that can be hard to access, and that's okay, it doesn't mean there's anything wrong with you, but when we can open our hearts up to awe and wonder.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): That can be a way of, again, becoming a resource for us. And that's been probably one of the most wonderful parts about my own journey following my breakup, is so many opportunities to find awe and wonder in my life.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): And, yeah.
Sarah Curnoles: Do you have an example? Like, would you share something?
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Yeah, yeah, happily. I mean, I…
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): one of my… first of all, one of my… my life philosophies, you know, you hear a lot of people say, live every day like it's your last. But to me, that almost…
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): you know, evokes a scarcity mindset, and I like to live every day like it's my first, because when we enter into this world, we are full of awe and wonder. And it's not just…
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): big things like the Grand Canyon, which is on my bucket list, but the small things, like the little snail parades that I see every day when I walk on the sidewalk.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): But I think, you know, a really potent example
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): was last year, I took myself to Hawaii, I went to Maui, and that's been a big thing for me, is traveling alone and learning a lot about myself, traveling alone. And I got up at 1.30 a.m. one morning to take a shuttle up to the top of a volcano and watch the sunrise.
Sarah Curnoles: Wow.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): tell you there…
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): aren't more, you know, there aren't many more moments in my life that could have evoked more awe for me. Just the cresting of the sun above the cloud break.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): And the tour guides that brought everybody up there were all Native Hawaiians, and they sung a beautiful prayer about letting go of yesterday and starting the day anew.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): And it was just such an emotional and beautiful moment, and I felt
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): not just connected to nature and the sun, but also all of the people around me that were sharing in this experience, and it was… I love to seek out right-sizing moments, you know, moments that right-size me in the scope of the universe and, you know, make me small, not in a negative way, but help me know that there's something bigger than myself.
Sarah Curnoles: Hmm, what a beautiful experience.
Sarah Curnoles: And also.
Sarah Curnoles: you almost get the opportunity any other sunrise you see, you can almost connect back to that, so you can bring it back and.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Yeah.
Sarah Curnoles: it again.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Yeah, yeah.
Sarah Curnoles: That's lovely.
Sarah Curnoles: I almost want to just, like, sit there. Oh, yeah.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Oh, I'm…
Sarah Curnoles: that in. I would love to.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Just go back, too.
Sarah Curnoles: Yeah, definitely.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Let's go, Sarah. Yeah, let's go, right? Break up or treat.
Sarah Curnoles: I love it! I'm working on some, actually.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Excellent.
Sarah Curnoles: Yeah. So, what…
Sarah Curnoles: In your experience, what have been some really simple practices that can help people when they're feeling,
Sarah Curnoles: When they're feeling activated.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Well, I'm a big journaler, and so I do write in my journal every single day. That was actually not a consistent practice I developed early on in my separation, but once I got in the habit and made that commitment to myself, it's one that I've maintained
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): for over a year now, and it's a way to check in with myself every day, it's a way to connect with myself, it's a way to maintain that curiosity. You know, my ritual as morning pages is 3 pages every day minimum.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): And let me tell you, if you don't have a lot to say, and you start writing, I don't have a lot to say, eventually the truth will emerge.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): And it's hard to hide from yourself when you are doing a practice like that. And let me tell you, Sarah, there are a lot of ways I got really good at hiding from myself over the years.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): And so, I seek out ways to face that truth. And, you know, I'm a therapist, but I also have a wonderful therapist, so I think that is really important. And finding the people in your life
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): who are able to support you in different moments. And I think what's really important in that is that
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): there's probably… just like your partner is never going to be the one-end-all be-all, we have to sometimes remember that our friends can't be that for us either, and one of the things that I often say to my clients is you… you don't go to a butcher for a birthday cake, and so it's really knowing who in your life is going to be the person to go for
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Go to for certain
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): elements of this process when you're really struggling. So you might have the friend that's like, yeah, you know, screw that person, they were a jerk, I'm so glad it's done, and that person's probably really helpful for you in some state of mind.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): But when you're deep in grief.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): That is typically not the response that we need, and so having the other person that you can go to that can just sit with you and be with you in your pain and say, honey, I know this is hard, and I'm here with you, you know, sometimes it can be helpful if they've been through it, too.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): I've been lucky in my life to have really wonderful people across the spectrum that can support me in different ways.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): And then, just movement is so important. Sarah, I know you know this as a coach and working with
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Folks going through breakup, but just being able to move your body, and what… and coming back to that curiosity and attunement in the ways that feel right for you.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): And, you know, sometimes that might be hardcore cardio to get some of the endorphins moving. Sometimes it might be yoga to really connect inwards, sometimes it might be just walking and connecting in nature, and finding that awe and wonder in nature. So I think a lot of it is, again, just
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Approaching any of the self-care practices and the coping strategies with attunement and compassion, and…
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): And knowing that, you know, if you have a toolbox, you don't want just one tool in there, right? You don't want just journaling, or just yoga, or just meditation. We want to put a lot of tools in there, and then determine in any given moment, what is it that I need right now? And that's such an important question, especially early in breakup.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): When you've probably been orienting your life a lot around somebody else's needs, it's like coming back home to yourself to ask yourself often, what do I need right now?
Sarah Curnoles: Yeah, and I think that that point that you're making about having a variety of people to go to is so interesting, because I think it comes up a lot of people feel this,
Sarah Curnoles: like, their social network just got really small. It shrunk when you lose that person, right? And there's almost… I know I experienced this, if there was a gap of, oh, I don't have anybody in my life who can relate to me going through a breakup. I was at a phase in my life where all my friends were married.
Sarah Curnoles: And it's actually what led me to get more serious about therapy, and I joined a women's embodiment group. Like, I was like, oh, this is a gap in my toolbox.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Yeah, right, right.
Sarah Curnoles: So, I gotta find a way to fill this.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): And…
Sarah Curnoles: And I… I say that out loud for people so that nobody weaponizes it against themselves, of like, oh, I don't have that friend, I… there's something wrong with me that I don't have this network.
Sarah Curnoles: It's… sometimes the gap can be really important, because it makes you go out and
Sarah Curnoles: Decide, how do I want to fill the gap?
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Yeah, and then the next step, Sarah, is I think many of us, you know, we… we live in a very much… a society that very much, values the whole pull yourself up by your bootstraps.
Sarah Curnoles: Put your big…
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): You throw panties on, you do everything by yourself, and especially, you know, I grew up in the 70s, half of us were latchkey kids. We grew up taking care of ourselves and not ever…
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Not only asking for help, but we didn't have anybody to ask for help from, so…
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): while I value my self-reliance, sometimes I can lean too heavily on it, and it's taken…
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): a lot of work to flex a muscle to start to know when to ask for help. You know, I have my therapist, and it was like, that's great, but that's once a week for 50 minutes. That's not going to sustain somebody most of the time, and so learning how to ask for help.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): has been huge for me, and I imagine a lot of people going through breakups for any variety of reasons, whether it's shame, or just feeling like people aren't going to understand this, that we don't typically ask for the help that we need. And the truth is, there are a lot of people that don't understand it, and
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): You know, if you're… you're suddenly finding yourself going through divorce or separation, and all your friends are married.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Many of them might be a little bit scared to be around you.
Sarah Curnoles: Totally.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): It can hold up that mirror to their own relationships and have them start questioning. And there are a lot of people that don't know what to say. That doesn't mean we should stop trying, it means we need to keep looking.
Sarah Curnoles: That's really good. I just feel like you keep having these moments that if I were listening, I would hit the pause button, and I would just sit in it, right? Of like, oh, let me sit in that.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): For a second.
Sarah Curnoles: That landed.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Yeah, well, you know, I'm a therapist, and I work with a lot of folks dealing with breakups, and it's still… I want to be transparent, it is hard for me to ask for help. I have gotten better at it, but I… I know what it's like to…
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Not get the response that you need in a moment of vulnerability, and that can be… we can use that as proof that we shouldn't ask, or evidence that we need to ask somebody else.
Sarah Curnoles: Yes, absolutely.
Sarah Curnoles: You also brought up grief and grieving, and I'm wondering if we can go into that, if you have tools or ways of helping people going through that.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Yeah. Well, I love what you said in one of your episodes about creating rituals around this kind of grief, because when a relationship ends, it is a death.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): And there are many things that we understand about the neurobiology of grief and death that I think are very applicable to breakups. Our bodies don't really differentiate that much between
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): the actual death of a loved one, and this other kind of loss, where they're still walking around on this earth.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): And so, there really aren't enough rituals and ways to grieve. You know, it dawned on me about it… I will be honest, Sarah, I kicked my grief down the road a little bit. I did a lot of distraction.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): To avoid feeling the grief, and sort of focused on the opportunity side of it, at the expense of the grieving side of it.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): And then it all hit me at once, and I… it suddenly dawned on me that if my…
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): husband, who I'd been partnered with for 31 years, had died.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): All of my friends would have been arranging meal trains, I would have been taking time off of work. If I didn't shower for a week, everybody would have said, yep, we got you, we'll do your laundry.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): And there would have been a shared memorial service where the grief would have been processed among multiple people losing this person, and I would not have felt alone. Instead…
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): I lost my husband, I had to go to the… go to work the next day after we decided we were going to move forward with divorce.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): There were no meal trains. There weren't even a lot of folks checking in on me to the same degree they would have had he died.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): And there was nobody sharing in that grief with me. It was not a loss. Even with my children, they were grown and out of the house, mostly, so it wasn't a big adjustment for them.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Nobody else was going through the loss that I was going through. And so I decided I needed to create my own ritual. And so I pulled… I'm a… I'm a little bit of a, you know, nostalgic person, so I had kept all of the cards he had given me over 3 decades of being together.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): And I sat down one day and read through a bunch of them, and I set a handful of them aside, and I invited some of my closest female friends over.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Only 2 out of the group had actually ever met him, because I… I relocated about 3 years ago, so most of my friends where I am now, you know, we… he and I split up not long after we relocated. They didn't know him.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): And they all took turns reading aloud his words that he had written to me.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): And what was fascinating, Sarah… now, my friends are all therapists, so they tend to be
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Emotionally connected. What was fascinating is everybody was crying.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): And it was the first time in that process that I did not feel alone in my grief, even though it was not a direct loss to them.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): And then we went outside, had a little fire pit, and burned the cards.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Oh, I love it.
Sarah Curnoles: this.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): And it was such a healing moment, and finally broke the isolation of my grief. And, you know, it doesn't mean I was done after that, but it was a way of marking to my body
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): to my attachment system, to my neurobiology that had an attachment to him, this is coming to an end. And it was a very powerful experience.
Sarah Curnoles: I love this so much, and I,
Sarah Curnoles: I think there's something really powerful about sharing it with the right.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): group of girlfriends.
Sarah Curnoles: I made a really good friend in my 30s. I haven't told this story on the podcast,
Sarah Curnoles: I used to stage manage, and I was stage managing Much Ado About Nothing. Love it. And the thing about stage managing is you see the same thing over and over and over again, so you have, like, a rhythm. Like, I don't even have to watch it, I hear it. And in Much Ado About Nothing, for anybody who doesn't know, in Act 3,
Sarah Curnoles: A character shows up for a wedding, and she's dumped at the altar and publicly humiliated.
Sarah Curnoles: the actress playing that character had a huge reaction that night, and so I just.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Hmm, check.
Sarah Curnoles: checked in with her afterwards, and I said.
Sarah Curnoles: I just noticed this. You… are you okay?
Sarah Curnoles: And she said, no, I'm going through a big breakup, and I just let myself feel it through this character tonight.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): get across.
Sarah Curnoles: And I was like, I'm going through a breakup too.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Wow.
Sarah Curnoles: And we became really good friends, and we were still friends. She's married with a daughter now, but in our 30s, we did our own little… we created, like you said, we created our own little rituals around these things, and it was really lovely.
Sarah Curnoles: have that person… we actually did something similar where we wrote, like, a goodbye letter to an ex, and we burned it in her apartment. Like, we read them out loud, and we burned them. Yeah. And then had margaritas.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Sounds wonderful. That sounds rough. Yep.
Sarah Curnoles: And there's something about finding the people, like you said, who can emotionally connect with you during that.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Yeah.
Sarah Curnoles: because I also have seen people do something, and there's that friend, like you said, who's like, yeah, like.
Sarah Curnoles: I'm so glad he's gone, and you're like, not the right… not the right tone.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Yeah.
Sarah Curnoles: Yeah, so that's really lovely. I love that idea of creating your own ritual that feels good, and it creates that,
Sarah Curnoles: That line for your body, your… and like you said, your attachment system.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Yeah, and I think, you know, adding to the story you just shared, I believe in another podcast you had mentioned, like, even writing a eulogy, right? Writing a eulogy to your partner, or your… or the relationship itself, right?
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): and really marking it in that way, honoring it, and when I had my ceremony, and that's what I called it, my grieving ceremony, I had two letters. One was more the, like.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): the… the, yeah, you are a jerk, which isn't true, that's… that's… that's just my angry parts that are still…
Sarah Curnoles: You're allowed to have that, you can, like, let it out.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Yeah, and then the other parts that actually have tremendous gratitude for the life we built together. And I… it really does break my heart when people talk about divorce as a failure, because
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Yeah, we got married when I was 23. We were together 31 years. We were married 28 years. If that's not success, I don't know what is. We had an incredibly successful marriage. We have two beautiful children together.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): And I know not everybody, has the benefit of having a more amicable split in the way that my ex and I do, but there is nothing about the process of divorce that undoes the good life that we built together, and it wasn't perfect.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): But it was really a good life, and I have no regrets, and I have a ton of gratitude, so the other letter that I wrote in my ritual was a reflection of that. And, you know, going back to this idea, it doesn't have to be either-or, it's both-and. Can we make room for all of it?
Sarah Curnoles: I love this, Michelle, like, say it again louder for the people in the back. The ending does not negate the good moments that you had during that relationship.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Yeah.
Sarah Curnoles: Yeah. And I'm with you, it breaks my heart when people call themselves a failure, or they call the relationship a failure. I used to do that.
Sarah Curnoles: So I understand where that's coming from.
Sarah Curnoles: But… but having done the depth of the work I've done, I don't… I don't see any of it as a failure.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Yeah. And that was a tough pill for me to swallow as a couples therapist, Sarah.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): My job, often, is to help two people find their way back to each other, and in the beginning of my separation.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): there was that… maybe not so much a failure, but am I an imposter?
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Am I to be helping other couples find their way back to each other when I couldn't
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): facilitate that with my ex, but what I remind myself over and over again, and anybody who has similar feelings, is no relationship can be saved by one person.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): And it takes two, and if you don't have two willing participants, then there's not much one person can do.
Sarah Curnoles: And also…
Sarah Curnoles: You got married at 23! How many people have you evolved into over 30 years? And sometimes, isn't it… I think it's Esther Perel who said she's had, like, 4 different marriages, they all just happen to be with the same person.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): read my mind.
Sarah Curnoles: Yeah, but sometimes… sometimes they're… You don't evolve together, and that's okay.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Yeah, yeah, and, you know, we… we once were our best selves together, and we reached a limit on… that… where we could no longer be our best selves and still be together, and in order to be our best and truest selves, we had to separate.
Sarah Curnoles: Yeah.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): It wasn't because there wasn't love.
Sarah Curnoles: Right, right, absolutely. I almost want to give a new definition of, like, what would it actually mean to fail at a relationship, right? I think failure would be…
Sarah Curnoles: Like, not trying at all.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Yeah, yeah.
Sarah Curnoles: I don't know. What do you… what do you think? Because I think if we… if we redefine it, maybe we declare this here, we're redefining what it means.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): That's the thing.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): I don't know, I mean, I'm… I don't… I think there are a lot of things we can fail at, but…
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): I don't know, it's such a concrete word that we apply to something so abstract, that I don't know that… is there any failure in a relationship? Because…
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): we're constantly changing and growing and evolving, and what is the… I think it's maybe redefining the measures of it, right? That… that… Right.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): It's not about a breakup, it's not about a divorce, it's not about longevity, because I think we can all name couples who have been together 30, 40, 50 years, and they're miserable. Is that success? Not in the way I would like to define it.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): So, I think maybe it's coming back to…
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): What does it mean to be true to yourself, and maybe not defining failure by the status of the relationship with the other, but the status of the relationship with yourself.
Sarah Curnoles: That's really good.
Sarah Curnoles: Mmm, yep, status of the relationship with myself. I like that.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): And yet, you know, even as I'm thinking out loud here, when I think about couples that maybe they don't seem happy, you know, but I only have an external view, I never want to undermine the significance of stability and predictability, and some people would rather choose that
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Then some of the things that now I value that I could not have had if those were the things that I was going to continue to prioritize.
Sarah Curnoles: Right.
Sarah Curnoles: Right. Yep.
Sarah Curnoles: Yep, and what… I'm sorry, my brain… because this is… this question was not prepared, this was off-script.
Sarah Curnoles: I think I'm grappling with this idea of, like, if it's failure.
Sarah Curnoles: in relation to the self, there's also… I feel like there's something… this isn't fully formed, but something around…
Sarah Curnoles: like, can I look myself in the eye in the mirror, and I'm proud of how I've behaved, how I show up in this relationship? Or…
Sarah Curnoles: Am I letting myself down? I don't know, I'm still grappling with this.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Well, it's an interesting question, Sarah, because if you had asked me 3 years ago, was I happy in my marriage, I would have said 100%.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): if you had asked me, do you feel like you have access to your vitality, I might have said yes, you might have started to catch me there, but what I…
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): did know
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): even as I was in denial around a lot of things, was that I couldn't feel joy. And I attributed that inability to feel joy to the wrong things.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): And in hindsight, I now realize that because of the structure of our relationship, and again, this is not to blame my partner, but the way we coexisted did not leave enough room for my joy.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): And so…
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): you know, sort of connecting to yourself, we… sometimes we don't even know that we're disconnected until we get out of the situation, and then we come back to ourselves. And, you know, there are so many memes around breakups, you know, if they didn't choose you, you get to choose yourself, so you win. But that's one of my favorites, right?
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Because when my marriage ended.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): there was that part of me that said I wasn't worthy of being chosen, I wasn't worthy of being fighting for. After 3 decades, I wasn't worthy, and let me tell you, I hustled a lot to build that worth, and it didn't work.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): And so, I've had to choose myself and come home to myself again and again and again, and to me, that is success. That is success right there.
Sarah Curnoles: I love that.
Sarah Curnoles: Okay, so what… what does it look like to be dating again?
Sarah Curnoles: Right? Like, for anybody who maybe has gone through a great divorce, and they're stepping back, like, wow, I haven't dated in a long time, like.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Yeah.
Sarah Curnoles: What does this look like?
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Well, you know, it's funny, Sarah, I jumped into dating really quickly when my ex and I split up, and I… not that I needed to justify it, but I justified it to some degree by saying, well, I had been lonely more recently in my marriage, and I was ready to not feel lonely.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): And, I… this was part of me reconnecting with my vitality. My ex and I had a lovely relationship in a lot of ways, but there were some things that were missing.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): And I set out to find those things, and so I… you know, a lot of people have a lot of negative experiences with dating. I think the mindset that I approached early in dating helped me navigate it in such a way that it was largely a positive experience.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): I wasn't looking for my next life partner, and that gave me a lot of liberty to engage with people that maybe I wouldn't have otherwise engaged with, but they were lovely people. And so, you know, it was the dating apps, so that was part of it. There are all kinds of ups and downs about that.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): I think this is where it becomes really important to be attuned to yourself and set important limits, because the dating apps, just like every other form of social media, are designed to
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Capitalize on our dopamine-seeking brains. And so, really knowing that it's easy to get caught up in that, and knowing what are some healthy boundaries that one might have if they're gonna go that route for meeting people.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): But I think just approaching it with openness, you know, the same thing… the same thing we talked about in a different context before, openness and curiosity, I think can be really powerful in dating, and
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): I'm fortunate for myself at least, I'm very extroverted, so the dating experience maybe was less energy consuming for me.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): than it is for some other people.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): I get no… no benefit from saying this, but I am a huge follower of somebody named Jenny Young, who… okay.
Sarah Curnoles: Love her! Love her! I haven't talked about her yet on here, so we.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Yeah.
Sarah Curnoles: introduce people.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): burned haystack dating method, you know, that's been a little less applicable for, in some ways for me, because I'm not looking for my next life partner, but it does help me sort of weed out people that I know just even going on a few dates with is not going to be a good fit. But, you know, I've also just enjoyed
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): dating a variety of people that were so outside of the template that I was used to. And what I think can be beautiful, Sarah.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): is… I think there's an opportunity for a lot of corrective experiences. You know, I do my work because I believe we heal best in relationships, and I think there's a lot of healing
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): we do with our relationship to ourselves, but there's some healing that can only happen in relationship with other. And it doesn't mean it has to be a romantic person, it can be a friend, it can be a family member, it can be a therapist.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): But when we can start to have some of those corrective experiences, it can be a really beautiful thing. And so, I think I sort of intuitively sought out to have some of those experiences. And, you know, I kind of…
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): had a period where I just kind of enjoyed it, and then I kind of… my bucket got full, and I… I'm in a very different headspace now than when that began a couple of years ago. But it doesn't have to be terrible in the way that a lot of people describe it.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Thank you.
Sarah Curnoles: Thank you for sharing all of that, because I'm with you. I'm actually pretty introverted, and I, I do pay attention to my energy levels, and I, you know, I make sure I'm not overexerting myself, and I have
Sarah Curnoles: boundaries and everything, so I'm saying that because there might be people listening of, like, well, easy for you, Michelle, you're an extrovert.
Sarah Curnoles: But I think you're right, of going in with a clear intention, an open mind, and curiosity can really change the dating experience. And I will say, the burn the haystack method
Sarah Curnoles: does help a lot. Yes.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): I can help you weed out things.
Sarah Curnoles: Correct.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Yeah.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): And I think also just tuning into what purpose dating is serving for you at any given time, you know?
Sarah Curnoles: Yes.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): I can now look back and say that it was filling a lot of holes for me early on that I don't need filled now, and I might have been too ashamed to admit then, but I can see it now. It wasn't… didn't mean it was unhealthy.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): But dating in the early days was meeting a very different need than my experiences more recently.
Sarah Curnoles: I love that, and being clear on the purpose. Yeah.
Sarah Curnoles: I don't think we ask that question a lot, so what could be possible examples of purposes for dating?
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Well, you know, for a lot of women, there may have been a long-standing experience of not feeling desired.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): And so, sometimes getting back into the dating pool creates an opportunity to awaken a part of ourselves that have often been dormant for a really long time. So, early on, it might just be, I need to meet this one need of being desired.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): You know, I also think about the idea that somebody's doing something for attention gets a bad rap.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): And I think it's ridiculous, because if we're doing something for attention, it might mean we're not getting the attention that we need. And I think it's okay to put yourself out there in dating and get a little attention. It can feel good.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): you know, we don't want to become dependent on that for our own self-worth and validation, but there's an element of that that I think can, you know, give us a little bit of a confidence boost and help us reconnect with the parts of us that we do like.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Further down the line, you may decide you want something more serious.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): And then you're approaching dating from a very different perspective, maybe more thoughtfully and with more intention. Maybe you're going on fewer dates, but you're being more discerning about who you go on a date with. Sometimes it's just, you know, I… so I moved to Southern California, the LA area, 3 years ago.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): And one of the amazing things about dating early on was I got to go to a lot of great restaurants in LA, and I got to go to shows, and I got to do all of these things
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): that I had always wanted to do with my partner, but didn't have a partner willing and ready to do those things. And so some of it was just, oh, I, you know, I have somebody to go enjoy these things with, and it was serving that purpose. So, those are just a few examples of how dating at different times can be meeting different needs.
Sarah Curnoles: Totally, and something you said earlier.
Sarah Curnoles: I guess another purpose could be, like, I'm exploring different types, like, maybe what I thought was my type isn't my type, so I'm gonna try dating different kinds of people, and just explore. Like, that's a purpose for dating right there.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Yeah, exactly. And I've met a lot of really interesting and very different and unique people.
Sarah Curnoles: Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. I have really loved this conversation. Is there anything I didn't ask you that you wish we would have discussed?
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): You know, maybe just touching a little bit on the impact of menopause? Oh.
Sarah Curnoles: Sure.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): going through a gray divorce, because that is a time of a lot of internal change in addition to external change. And I don't need to go into a lot of detail on this, but I think we can't talk about divorce and dating and menopause and leave out the conversation about sex itself.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): And there's a lot around rediscovering what it means to be a sexual being, especially in marriages where maybe sex hasn't been a big part of the marriage for a long time. And so I just want to…
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Maybe offer a nugget of hope around that, that if that feels important to you, or something to explore.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Even as your body is going through a lot of changes, there are ways to reconnect to that part of yourself even later in life, and experience a vibrant and healthy sex life. So, I can get on my soapbox about that, too.
Sarah Curnoles: I love that!
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): A whole nother episode. I know.
Sarah Curnoles: Right? Yeah, that's actually a great topic for another episode. Amazing. So, if somebody is listening to this, and they want to connect with you, they want to learn more from you, where can they find you?
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Yeah, well, I have sort of two pathways to connect with me. One is around my therapy practice, so if you are located in California, Virginia, or Washington, D.C, I am licensed in all three of those areas.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): and you can find me by going to my practice website, which is a mouthful. It's thecenterforgrowthandconnection.com. Outside of that, I have social media, and I also do public speaking and writing, and that can be… the information on that can be found at MichelleCantrell.com.
Sarah Curnoles: Love it! Thank you so much! And, something I like to do at the end of my episodes with my guests, if you have a pep talk that you would like to give the listeners, what would you like to say to them?
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Well, I think I just would say something really succinct, which is fall in love with yourself the same way you fell in love with your partner that you're now letting go of.
Sarah Curnoles: So good.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): I didn't.
Sarah Curnoles: I'm gonna cut you off, I made a face, so if people are just listening, I was like, I made the face. I was like, that's really good.
Sarah Curnoles: Oh, thank you so much for this, Michelle, this has been such a pleasure.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Thank you, Sarah. I love this, this conversation, and helping provide hope for people going through something so painful is such an important thing to be doing.
Sarah Curnoles: Amazing. And if anybody's listening, wants to connect with Michelle, I'll put all the links in the show notes, so it's nice and easy, and they can find you. Thank you.
Michelle Cantrell LPCC (she/her): Alright, thank you.