Sarah Curnoles interviews Mia Hanks, a survivor of narcissistic abuse. She was married to a cover narcissist for 29 years and in 2024 she published and award winning memoir titled Bride-Made. She is committed to raising awareness about narcissism and helping other victims find their voices.
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Have you gone through a breakup and you're tired of feeling low, lonely, or lost? I've got a pep talk through you. I'm Sarah Curnoles, your breakup bestie. I'm a certified life coach with years of coaching experience, helping people just like you turn your breakup into the best thing that ever happened to them. Each week, tune in to get a pep talk to heal your heart, let go of the past, reclaim your power, and get back into your main character energy. Your breakup may have shattered your world as you know it, but together let's build a new, better world. Let's go.
(00:44)
Hello, my friends. Welcome to another episode of Breakup Pep Talks. I have a special guest here with me today, and she is a published author. I'll read her full bio, but she shares her story of surviving narcissistic abuse. And I get this question a lot. I talk to a lot of you all who have been through varying degrees of a narcissistic relationship, and I thought this conversation was so important to have. Then I wanted to bring on Mia to share her experience and how she turned that into something really positive. So Mia Hanks is a survivor of narcissistic abuse. She was married to a covert narcissist for 29 years, and in 2024, she published an award-winning memoir titled Bridemaid. She's committed to raising awareness about narcissism and helping other victims find their voices. You will find all the information of how to connect and get Mia's book in the show notes.
(01:49)
So if you love this conversation, definitely check out her book, and I hope you enjoy this. All right, my friends, I am so excited for the guest I have for you today. I am so excited to be introducing you to Mia Hanks. Mia, thank you so much for being here.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Absolutely. So for listeners who are meeting you for the very first time, would you mind sharing a little bit of your backstory of how you got here?
Speaker 2 (02:22):
Yeah, so I was in a marriage with a covert narcissist for 29 years, and I got married very young. I was 21, and I ended up just more or less getting sucked into this relationship and basically getting what I felt stuck. And I stayed there for almost three decades. I finally found my way out and wrote a memoir about it, and here I am.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
That's awesome. So I'd love to go back to the beginning just a little bit of who were you before the relationship began?
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Yeah, I like to think of myself as kind of naive, really. If I'm being honest, I came from a very sheltered background, a very idyllic childhood, no trauma. And I think that I was sort of this very happy, joyful person who I really thought everyone had good intentions. I really was not looking for red flags. And yeah, when the love bombing started with my now ex-husband, I really thought that it was a good thing. I though the attention was a good thing, and I just didn't know what I didn't know. So I was very happy, very naive, and just didn't know what was lurking around the corner.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
There's so many ways to go about this, of this conversation is so rich and so deep. And I think it oversimplifies things when we dive right into like, oh, let's talk about what were the red flags? Because of course you don't see them while you're going through it. Like you said, you though the love bombing was normal. It probably felt like a fairytale to some aspect of what we're all taught to expect love to feel like.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
It really did. I didn't see the negative in it. How can it be bad when somebody is showering you with attention and all their time and gifts and all these wonderful grand gestures? It just didn't feel like that should be a red flag. No one told me. And I think back, this was, again, 30 plus years ago, we weren't having these conversations.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
No, it definitely wasn't. No. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Yeah. So I think a lot of people, myself included, didn't know at that time that that was a bad thing. Because we weren't talking about it, people didn't know what to look out for. And it kind of makes me think, in my generation and my age group, how many other people are sitting in marriages that are potentially abusive? And they just, again, they didn't know what they didn't know and they got stuck in this situation.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Yeah. And when I start talking to people that have been through this situation, they are so hard on themselves of like, "I thought I was a good person. I though I was being loving." Why do you think people find themselves in this kind of a situation?
Speaker 2 (05:48):
I think that for my situation specifically with a narcissist, narcissists tend to target people who are very empathetic, who are willing to take on guilt that's not theirs, and who quite honestly are people pleasers. And so I think by the nature of just our personalities, people like that, myself included, we do tend to think, "Well, I guess it's my fault. I shouldn't have gotten myself in this. I should have known better." I think we do tend to be harder on ourselves than we need to be. I know I was. When I left, it took me a long time to get over the guilt of it. I was worried because I'm thinking I've ruined his life. I've walked out on him. But it took a therapist to make me realize, but look at what he's done to your life. So yeah, I think it's just that personality trait that it's hard to see it for what it is.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
And it's so mind trippy that you were in an abusive situation, that you were the one that left and you were feeling guilt about it.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
Definitely. I felt terrible guilt, and I kept saying, and I kept thinking, "Maybe I shouldn't have left because it was horrible." But I kept saying, "Well, but every day wasn't bad."
Speaker 1 (07:16):
So
Speaker 2 (07:17):
Trying to make a math equation out of it thinking, "Well, I guess a good day cancels out a bad day, and that's just not right." And it took me a while to understand that no, somebody that's causing trauma in your life, I mean, that level of abuse is not okay. Even if there are 50 good days in between two bad incidents, it doesn't cancel out the abuse. So yeah, I just wanted to keep making this a math problem, and it's not.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
Yeah. And I think a lot of people get to the point where they do leave and then they beat themselves up of like, "I should have seen it sooner. I should have left. Why did I stay?" Did you have moments where it felt off, but you talked yourself into staying?
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Definitely. I mean, it felt off pretty early on, but I think I didn't get into this marriage just to turn around and leave. So I was intent on making it work. And then a few years in, we had two children, and then I have my kids to think about. And I'm thinking, well, a good mom is not going to break up the family and make her children children of divorce. And so I think I had really good intentions all while knowing that something wasn't right. But I just thought if I hung in there long enough, if we could get to the next stage of life where maybe we're getting older, maybe the stress is lessening, maybe when he gets to retirement age, things will get better. And the fact of the matter is it doesn't get better. It really, in my case, it just gets worse.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
So now that we have the benefit of hindsight, and all the work that you've done for yourself personally, what do you see as the distinction or the difference between being a kind, helpful, compassionate person versus people pleasing?
Speaker 2 (09:15):
That's a tricky question. I mean, I think it's a fine line. And I think the way I've kind of reasoned it is that people pleasing isn't necessarily a bad thing. I mean, these aren't bad qualities to be empathetic and be able to put yourself in someone else's shoes, that's a good quality to have. And the whole people pleasing and wanting to make people happy. But I think you have to ask yourself, why am I people pleasing? Am I doing it because I want to, or am I doing it to ward off the repercussions? And that's kind of where I landed. I was tending in my marriage to people please in order to keep bad things from happening. And that's not a healthy people pleasing. So there's two sides to it, I feel like.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
I think, like you said, it is a fine line and a slippery slope because I think where it's clearly in the people pleasing place is where you're almost doing it to your detriment.You're doing it without any regard for yourself where you're overextending yourself or almost feel compelled, I have to make that person happy at all costs.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Yes. Yes.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
And I can't remember who said it, but somebody wiser than me put it into words of people pleasing is actually a form of manipulation.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
Yeah. I mean, I think we start manipulating ourselves. And I was definitely, definitely guilty of that, but I couldn't see it while I was doing it. I think my focus was just smooth it over, make things okay so we can make it to the next day, and then we start all over again. And in my memoir, I talk about, I kind of liken it to a stained glass window. And it's sort of like every day that glass gets broken and there's pieces everywhere. And I spend the whole day trying to put those pieces all back together to make this nice picture. And then the next day it just shatters again. So yeah, I mean, it's exhausting. People pleasing can be exhausting. I think some people don't realize the mental toll and the mental exhaustion it takes when you're trying to keep everybody happy but yourself.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
That actually might be a really helpful distinction because if you're being genuinely generous, it's almost energy giving to you. When you give for the goodness of giving, it makes you feel good. It lifts you. It makes you feel good. Yes. It gives you this energy, but people pleasing is exhausting. It's draining.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
Yeah, definitely. And there's no energy in it. You feel like you're giving all your energy away. You're taking nothing. You're getting nothing in return for that other than I would always be upset with myself thinking, "Well, I've just caved again. I've just given him what he wants to keep him happy. And I feel like I just caved, I gave in." And that would always frustrate me later. I would think, "Why didn't I just stay on my ground?" So yeah, I am people pleasing, but then I'm mad at myself for people pleasing.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
Yeah. Yeah. Right. Then we feed ourselves up further.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
Right,
Speaker 1 (12:35):
Right. Yeah. So most people think of abuse as being really obvious or being really loud or being physical. What did covert narcissistic abuse actually look like?
Speaker 2 (12:49):
It's very confusing because as a covert narcissist, my ex-husband out in public in the world, he looked compassionate, he looked kind, he looked like he was husband of the year, father of the year. He was generous. Everything, all things good. He was very charming. But behind closed doors, I saw a completely different side of him. He was controlling, manipulating, just making life miserable every single day in our home. And yet everybody else is saying, "Oh, what a great guy."
(13:21)
And so it's very confusing because you're sort of like, "Well, do I believe everybody else that he's a great guy? Or do I believe myself?" And I'm thinking he's a terrible person, but you don't know who to believe. You're sort of outnumbered. And unfortunately, I found myself sort of perpetuating the lie and telling people, "Yeah, he's agreeing. Yeah, he's great. He's great. Everything's great. My life is great. Everything's perfect." And I think that was just me wanting everybody to think I had it together. But it's very confusing. Covert narcissism is because you just don't know who to believe when you're in it. Now that I'm out of it, I can look back and say, "Oh my goodness, I see exactly what was going on." But when you're living it every day, it's really hard to sort out who's right and who's wrong.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
Yeah. What went into making the decision that you were going to leave?
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Really, it was my physical health. I was declining. I was suffering from chronic pain, headaches, stomachaches, anxiety attacks. And I just knew it wasn't sustainable. And I really started doing a deep dive on some research and I'm thinking, "I've got to find out what's going on because this isn't right. I don't believe other people live like this." And so I think just taking the reins and saying, "I've got to figure this out." And also going to therapy. I think it was just a snowball effect. One bad thing led to another bad thing. And I finally just said, "I've got to get out of here. I can't survive this anymore."
Speaker 1 (15:00):
So
Speaker 2 (15:02):
Yeah, I mean, it was a series of events, but it culminated into, I got to go. And I think I was looking for permission. I didn't need permission, but I needed somebody to tell me, "It's okay if you leave." And fortunately, I found a therapist who said, "You got to go." And that was really what I needed.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
And I mean, you were willing to listen to her. That's huge.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
I was. I was actually, we were in marriage counseling. It was my ex-husband's, his decision, his choice to go to marriage counseling. And I said, "Sure, anything. Somebody help me." And we went to therapy and we did joint sessions. And after about 10 sessions, the therapist actually kicked my ex-husband out of therapy in the middle of a session.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
Yeah, it was a big moment. She basically said, "I can't help you. You can't self-reflect. You can't see things from other people's perspectives. You can't take responsibility for your own actions." And she literally said, "Please, just good luck to you. I hope it all works out, but I can't see you anymore." And that was huge. I was like, "Whoa, I never thought I'd see that."
Speaker 1 (16:21):
I've never heard of that happening. Never.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
Never. So we left and never had a discussion about it. And then I actually contacted that therapist on my own a few days later and said, "I need to talk to you." And I didn't want my husband to know that I was meeting with her. And I set up a Zoom meeting, and I remember driving to a Walmart parking lot and sitting in my car on my phone on Zoom and having this discussion with her. And I'm like, "Tell me what's going on because I think this guy might be a narcissist." And she's like, "I think you're right." And we had a long talk and she said, "If you want to leave this relationship, you really need to get out." And I said, "Well, I do want to leave." And she said, "You need to go. This is not going anywhere good." So I think I really needed that outsider perspective to say, "This isn't good.
(17:20)
Go. You have permission. It's okay if you leave." And that's really what I needed.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
Yeah. And so you left and you found yourself rebuilding from the ground up. What did that look like?
Speaker 2 (17:34):
Kind of scary. I had been in this marriage since I was 21 years old. I had been told for nearly three decades that I could not sustain my life without him, that I couldn't manage things, that I was not capable, that I was not smart, that I needed him. And I'm fresh out of this marriage thinking, maybe he's right. I don't know. Can I do this? Can I actually live on my own? I had never lived on my own. And so definitely scary, but at the same time, it was exciting. I'm like, "Well, maybe he's wrong and maybe I can do this." And I think that the level of freedom that I experienced getting out under that abuse was overwhelming. It really was overwhelming, but at the same time, so exciting because I had just never felt that level of freedom. So it was a slow process.
(18:31)
I stayed in therapy for a year, and I think that was a huge help. But just a slow process. I mean, really, I'm out here 50 years old living on my own for the first time. So there was a lot to learn, for sure. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
And then when it comes to the healing process, what really helped and then what really didn't help?
Speaker 2 (18:57):
I think therapy helped, although it's not a cure-all. It definitely set me up for success. It kind of set me on the right path, so that helped. As far as what didn't help, I don't know. I mean, I think trying to be too hard on myself didn't help. I really learned early on that I needed to take it at my own pace. Healing, it's one step forward, two steps back. And just feeling like I needed to accomplish too much at one time is unrealistic expectations for yourself. That doesn't
Speaker 1 (19:40):
Help.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
I had to realize that this is a slow process and some days aren't going to be good, and some days are going to be great. But realizing as long as I'm moving forward, as long as I'm headed in the right direction, eventually things are going to come together. And they did. They really did.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
How did you rebuild your self-trust after all of this?
Speaker 2 (20:06):
That's hard because I do remember making decisions early on, fresh out of this marriage, and making financial decisions for one thing, and really feeling like I don't know if I can trust myself. I don't know if I'm making the right decisions. I would second-guess myself at every turn and think, "Oh, I hope I'm not messing this up." But then I realized that's the voice that's living in my head. That's my ex-husband saying, "You mess everything up. You can't do it right. I need to do it. If I leave it to you, it will get all messed up." It took some time to realize, "Wow, I'm making good decisions. This is working out for me." And so I would say that first year was tough. I really did want to.
(20:53)
And the other thing is I questioned doing good things for myself. If I wanted to say, do something nice for myself, buy myself a new outfit or something, I found myself saying, "Well, I don't know if I should. I'll feel guilty if I do that." So it takes time. You just have to do it and then realize, "Oh, that actually did feel good. I think that was good for me." And I think it took about probably a year of me really just questioning everything I was doing before I finally realized, "I think I'm capable. I think I can do this."
Speaker 1 (21:30):
What surprised you the most about the woman you've become?
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Definitely that I'm more capable than I was ever told I was. I tell a story in my second book that talks about healing. For my entire marriage, I got it in my head early on that I could not drive on the freeways. I know that sounds crazy, but I think that was kind of my ex-husband saying, "Well, I don't know if you can do that. You should probably just stay in our little community." It was one of those things where it just sort of this little idea that was planted in my head.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
It's isolation too. It's isolation. It's like him isolating you. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
Exactly. And I can remember we moved to a large city and I can remember wanting to get out and try to learn to navigate the freeway system and him saying, "Oh, I don't know. I think it's a little stressful for you and maybe you shouldn't." And that little tiny seed of an idea just grew. And for most of my marriage, I really never left my community. And if I did, I would find some convoluted back way to go because I became so fearful of driving the freeway system. And so after I left, after I was divorced, and there arose a need for me to drive to another state, I needed to help my parents. They were moving. And I thought, "I think I'm just going to do it." And it was crazy. I thought maybe I'm out of my mind, but I think I'm going to just get in my car and I think I'm going to get out on the freeways and I'm going to drive 11 hours.
(23:13)
And it was for a lot
Speaker 1 (23:15):
Of people-That's a long drive, even for somebody who does a lot of driving.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
It was a big undertaking. But I think a lot of people would be like, "That's not a big deal." But it was a big deal to me. And I did it, and I was petrified. But I did it, and I made that 11-hour trip, and I got there, and everything went so smooth. And I thought, wow, for 30 years here I thought I couldn't go anywhere. And now I just did. And now I make that drive all the time. So it is surprising. I think anyone in my situation that has come out of narcissistic abuse, I mean, you have no idea what you're capable of.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
That's beautiful.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
What do you think might be some small signs that healing is happening? If somebody's going through it and they feel like it's not happening fast enough or it doesn't feel like I'm healing, what might be some signs that they're overlooking?
Speaker 2 (24:14):
I think if you're able to. It's about how you feel about yourself really. I mean, if you are starting to feel pretty good about yourself, starting to feel like, "I think I can do this," that's definitely a big sign that you're healing, that you're starting to trust yourself again. If you can wake up and not feel impending doom every day. If you can pull in your driveway and not think, "Oh, I don't want to go inside that house," because that's how I was in my marriage. If I can pull in my garage and it feels good, it's just really more about how you're feeling on the inside that signifies healing, I think. It's not so much if you're moving huge mountains. It's just those little things that you start feeling better about yourself. You start feeling better physically. You just notice that you are finding more peace in your day and you're not feeling on edge all the time.
(25:15)
I mean, those might seem like little things, but those are big things that tell you that things are getting better.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
Yeah. And so you mentioned you have two books. You've got Bridemaid A Memoir and I've Made Plans, a Memoir of Rebuilding. Yes. What made you decide that you wanted to write a book about it?
Speaker 2 (25:33):
I think when I was going through this and going through my divorce, I really wanted to find everything I could find about narcissism and people who'd lived through this. And everything I could find, I was reading everything I could get my hands on, and everything I was finding was written by therapists and psychologists. So it was good information, but it was academic. And I really was seeking out. I want a firsthand account and I couldn't find it. And so that's why I though, maybe if I just put all this in a memoir. I don't know who else out there's going through this, but maybe it's relatable. Maybe it gives someone that validation to say, "Huh, I think my marriage might be abusive. These people who are questioning what's going on in their marriages." So that was really where the first book came from. And then the second one, I thought so many people asked me, especially when I would do podcast interviews and whatnot, they would say, "But then what happened?
(26:32)
You got divorced, you got out, but then what?" And so I though, "Well, I guess I'll answer that." And so that became the basis of the second book about rebuilding.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
I love that. And so I'm sure when you're writing a book about rebuilding, I imagine there's a lot about hope and possibility of what's next. And if you were sitting across from somebody who might be secretly wondering if they're the problem or if they should leave, what would you tell them?
Speaker 2 (27:09):
I think if you're asking yourself those questions, that's a red flag in and of itself. If you're wondering, should I leave? If it's that bad that you're wondering if you should leave, you really need to do a deep dive and say, why am I feeling this way? I think those are feelings you should never ignore. And just know that if you are dealing with narcissism specifically, it does get better. And if you're hanging in there thinking, I'm the problem, and if I'm just better, the marriage will be better. It doesn't work that way. But really, if you're asking yourself those questions, do I need to get out of this marriage? There's a reason you're asking yourself that. Your intuition is saying something isn't right.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
And if you could share a snapshot from your day just to share with people what could be possible on the other side of this, what would that snapshot look like?
Speaker 2 (28:06):
I love being able to wake up in the morning and decide how I want to spend my day. I think a lot of people take that for granted. I will never take that for granted. Waking up and saying, "What do I want to do today? And how am I going to structure my time? And how am I going to spend my time? Who am I going to spend my time with?" Those are things that I just will not take for granted. Again, I can make all my own decisions. I can decide what my life looks like, and I can set goals for myself now. I have things I want to accomplish. Whereas in my marriage, I didn't know what I wanted. I didn't know who I was. So just being able to explore who I am every day and learn new things about myself, it is so exciting.
(28:53)
And I love that I can appreciate the little things now that before would've not mattered to me. So it's really wonderful. There's just so much joy that I'm finding that I wouldn't have found had I not gone through this. And I hate that I had to waste so much of my life living in this abusive situation, but I found so much joy on the other side.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
And I think one of the biggest fears people have about leaving a relationship that's not working, whether it's narcissistic abuse or just a relationship that isn't working, is that I'm going to have to rebuild again. And it means I lose everything and I have to start over. But the picture you're painting of joy and appreciating the little things and choice, possibility of I get to choose how I spend my day and who I spend it with and what I do, to me, that feels like everything would be worth it.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
It really is. And I think I had this idea that rebuilding would be a lot scarier than it and a lot harder than it is. Because rebuilding can actually be very exciting. It doesn't all have to be scary. Of course it's scary. Of course it's scary to walk away from something that you've been part of for so long, but it's definitely possible to rebuild and there's probably more joy in the rebuilding than what you realize when you're stepping out of a marriage because it is scary.